Cuernavaca Correspondence
In April, 2006 we ran into Marcos and Marta Velasco in the mall, and subsequently posted an update on the Casa de Sion property in Cuernavaca which he, along with others, built for the Geftakys ministry with donated funds and labor. The Geftakys ministry put it in Marta Velasco's name, because Americans are not allowed to own property in Mexico. However, the Geftakys ministry had come to an end in 2003. Here is the series of interchanges it elicited from Brent T., Steve C. and Mark Campbell.
April 23, 2006 Brent T. wrote as follows:
With regard to Cuernavaca and Casa de Sion on La Loma, I have been in contact with Steve C. in the past, and once with Marcos.
At that time, I was told that if the house ever did sell, they might possibly return money to their investors. I am one of those investors, for the modest sum of ten thousand dollars. They know this. I think Dave Zach is probably the biggest investor; hopefully, he is in contact Marcos regarding this.
The house was purchased for George to retire/vacation in, hence the large library, etc. The only reason Martha owned it has to do with Mexican real estate laws, as far as I know. It was always understood that the house was owned by "the Work."
Now that the Work is no more, I don't think it is fair that my money (let alone God's money!) be used to purchase a house for the Velasco's that has appreciated quite a bit. Since the house no longer meets the terms for which it was purchased, it should be sold, and investors should be compensated accordingly. From what Steve had shared, the house is worth a good deal of money...far more than what it cost to build.
The original intent of my "gift,"---which I am quite certain applies to others as well---was NOT to purchase investment property for the Velasco's, but the purchase a house for George's ministry. (At that time I thought it was God's ministry, not for profit, above board, etc.) Never at any time did I want to bless the Velasco's with real estate. You get the point. The house should be sold, and people paid back, both those who donated cash, and those who donated sweat equity.
I have shared this before with Steve C., and he is in total agreement. When I spoke to Marcos perhaps two years ago, his reply was along the lines of, "It's the Lord's house, and it's going to be used in the work of the Lord by Calvary Chapel," or some missionary group or other. Again, when I originally gave the money, I didn't give it to Calvary Chapel, but to George's ministry. Now that his ministry is largely defunct, the assets should be liquidated.
I didn't give money to support Marcos in ministry, or buy a nice house for him and Martha, and I feel it is immoral for them to personally profit in this way at the expense of others. None of us did what we did with this end in mind, including them! Had George ever thought they had plans to abscond with his real estate, they would have been excommunicated promptly!
In short, I want my money back, with reasonable interest, and I am sure others would like the same thing. They don't deserve a house they didn't pay for anymore than I do.
I probably can't do much about this, but hopefully Marcos has a conscience and can see my point of view.
Feel free to forward this to him, if you have his email, and by all means, post it on the website!
Brent T.
The editor forwarded Brent's comment to Mark Campbell, who replied on April 30, 2006:
I think his reply should be posted on the site. Not because there is any responsibility on your part to negotiate between the Velascos and Brent, but only because you did post what you did from the Velasco's point of view.
There is a chance that Marcos may do the right thing here, whereas with GG it would take a miracle repentance on his part (I'm also out $10,000 that I gave to "the school"--- so said GG-- but I know there is no reasonable expectation of now getting that back).
Brent has a real chance here and it would allow for at least a small opportunity to make right something that was clearly wrong from the Assembly past.
We thought about this situation or awhile, and decided that it would be better to put Brent directly in touch with Marcos before posting anything on the website. Meanwhile, we received the following feedback:
May 24, 2006, from Steve C.: I read the update regarding the house in Cuernavaca and was curious what type of contact you have had with Marcos. The update states that he has checked with the main people who were involved in Cuernavaca and they were OK with what he was doing.
I was the first one to move down there after him and while I was there (5 years) we basically did everything together. He has never really asked me about what should happen with the house. I asked Eric J. who was the other "Worker" down there (he lived there over 10 years and was there during the construction of the house. I came back before the construction). Eric just e-mailed me and said Marcos never spoke with him about it.
I would like to contact Marcos in the near future, but in the meantime, I was curious what has been said. I know that there are people who would like to see that house sold and people re-paid so that chapter of things can be closed.
You probably remember GG's story about how his dad building a huge house in a poor part of Greece to prove he was better than them. Well, that is exactly where the HUGE Casa de Sion is built.
If Marcos wants to minister down there when he retires (at least when his kids grow up - I don't see practically him going down there before that) he could always have a ministry at the carpentry shop. There are 3 bedrooms and 1 bath on the top floor and if he's not there working for a living, the downstairs would be sufficient to accommodate the size of meeting that you could realistically expect in that neighborhood.
For people to access that neighborhood from other parts of Cuernavaca, it is not really practical at all. It is a real challenge for outside transportation (at least it was when I was there and I don't know how that would change). It is not centrally located.
So why was it built there to begin with? Quite frankly, as a vacation/retirement home for GG and a way to do something with all the $$. He even had a huge room built on the roof of the house that was clearly to be used ONLY for him. But he forbid anyone from calling it "George's room". You know the story.
Anyway, I was just curious, as I would like to contact Marcos. I would like to give him a chance before posting anything. No one gave money so that he and Martha could own and live in a million-dollar-plus home. Quite frankly, I don't even see how they could afford the upkeep as that was part of the reason for them moving back to the US, and if no one is living in the house it will deteriorate quickly without upkeep and will also be a likely object of vandalism.
Steve C.
Editor's reply, May 24, 2006: Good to hear from you! Marcos and Martha live in the same general part of Orange County as we do, and we have run into them in the mall twice in the last two months. We talked for probably half an hour both times. The statement on the website--that Marcos had checked with the people who were most involved in the work down there--may not reflect exactly what Marcos meant. In thinking about it in terms of your email, it seems likely he meant that he had talked to the main financial contributors. He mentioned Dave Zach and Brent T., but seemed to indicate he had talked to others as well.
Brent has also read the recent website post and sent us a statement to the same effect as yours, that he thinks the property should be sold and the money disbursed to the main investors, both financial and in sweat equity. Brent wants his statement posted, but we are trying to find a way to get in touch with Marcos first so Brent can send him the statement privately. If you know how to contact him, would you feel free to send us the info? We would prefer a mail or email address, rather than phone number, if possible. Please let us know your thoughts.
Steve's reply, May 25, 2006: Yes, I received an e-mail from Brent as well. However, when I asked him, he said that Marcos never spoke with him. Possibly he did a long time ago. I think that it is wise that you let Marcos see the statement first.
I think that Marcos is really doing himself and Eric J. a disservice. I don't think that anyone has a problem with Marcos keeping the profit after everyone is paid back, and sharing or dividing that with Eric. Marcos did have to do a lot of work to see that house built (buying materials, hiring laborers, getting permits, overseeing the work, etc.) and both he and Eric are behind the eight ball when it comes to establishing themselves here, coming back to the US in their forties and having nothing to show for it.
Of course, I believe they were as sincerely involved in the Lord's work as any of us were, and in that sense there is no regrets (on our part there is none). The Lord provided for my wife and I when we came back in an incredible way and we were able to purchase a house just before the prices skyrocketed.
Marcos and Eric didn't get in at that time. But I believe that the Lord has provided for them as well ... in that house! The Lord derailed GG's plans and there is nothing he can do about it because the house is in Martha's name and there was no proof of any money being given (he fears the IRS anyway... for good reason!).
However, and you could probably confirm this, the last time I talked with Marcos, selling the house and using the money for another good didn't fit in with his religious mentality. I don't say this in a demeaning way.
In regards to an e-mail address, I don't have one. When the explosion took place, my thinking about "this ministry" quickly began to change. I thought Marcos would see it also, but initially, and probably because he was so influenced like many who lived with GG, he kept clinging to the old mentality and sort of treated me with the suspicion that we all did when someone "left fellowship". So now I got to see what it felt like. Well, our relationship from that point really went south. It shows what a lot of "friendships" were really all about in the group.
The best I can do is probably get you a phone number. My wife still maintains contact with Martha S., and I will ask her to see if she can get Marcos phone number from her. I'll also have her check to see if she can get an e-mail address.
I don't have any animosity towards him, it's just some of that weird kind of estrangement that has taken place post-Assembly. My hopes are that time will heal some of that. Of course, in a lot of cases, it depends on whether the other person is really willing to repent of the old ways of thinking and allow their minds to clear of all the junk. I know that is still taking place for me. I trust that Marcos is on that road now, but I don't know.
The editor replied on May 25, 2006: Just to clarify about Brent, he said the following to us in an email dated 4/23/06: "....with regard to Cuernavaca and Casa de Sion on La Loma, I have been in contact with Steve C. in the past, and once with Marcos. At that time, I was told that if the house ever did sell, they might possibly return money to their investors...."
We get the same impression as you, that selling the house doesn't fit in with Marcos and Marta's concept of God's calling them to have a ministry there. Marta, especially, talks with a lot of enthusiasm about what a huge house it is, what a perfect place it is for God to raise up something, and how much spiritual warfare there is down there. They say they hope to go back with the two younger kids when their second son, who is 16, graduates from high school.
From what you have said, it doesn't seem very realistic, in addition to not being a missions project that all the investors in the house want to stay invested in. I think it would help Marcos if you and Eric could talk to him. It might also help if you both were to contact Dave Zach with Marcos' plans and your perspective--I doubt if Dave reads the website. I am hoping to get some contact information for Marcos through S. from a relative. I'll let you know.
What has happened to countless Assembly friendships is very sad. I agree with your comments, that hopefully time will help, if people are willing to change their thinking. It didn't sound to us like Marcos and Martha are really in fellowship with any particular church. Martha's main fellowship seems to be with Lorraine Bush, and with family. They seem to be trying to visit churches to find backing for their future mission. Maybe that is why they don't seem to have changed much from their Assembly mentality.
On May 25, 2006, the editor sent contact info to Steve, and emailed Brent: Sorry it has taken so long to respond to your email. It seemed best to try to get your statement to Marcos personally, first, before posting it. To that end I have been trying to get contact info for him, and finally got it today.....We have also heard from Steve C. in the interim. He basically agrees with you, as you know, and plans to talk to Marcos.
It seems best to us that you send your statement to Marcos yourself, instead of us being in the middle. Please let us know what or if you have had a response from him. We will then proceed accordingly in regard to posting the info on the website.
Steve replied on May 25, 2006: Thank you for this e-mail and also the e-mail with the address and phone number. I don't know if talking to Marcos will do a lot of good from your comments in regards to how they are still thinking. My main concern is Marta. She seems to be thinking and acting the same as always. Again, this is not meant to be critical, but this was always a real large part of the problem. It's even a bigger problem in this case, because the house is actually in her name. Marcos is not a Mexican citizen and can't own property in Mexico.
I did find Dave Zach's business phone over the internet, but hesitated to call because of the thought that Rod might answer the phone. Rod ran a little G & B style home, and my wife and I had the "privilege" of living there for 2.5 years, so that's the reason for the hesitation. But I will call him.
My guess is that Marcos would only sell the house if he was pressured to do so by people like Dave. Marcos doesn't need that big house to have a ministry down there. He also has a fairly new truck sitting down there rusting that Dave bought him.
I don't think that the warfare that Marta spoke of was so much warfare as it was a lack of God's blessing. And if they haven't changed their thinking, and go down there and try to do the same thing, I think it will be more of the same. We probably passed out 1,000 invitations for each visitor that we got. Was that because of warfare? Sure there was warfare, but in this case I don't think that was the chief issue.
By the way, you said that Marta's main fellowship was with Lorraine Bush. Lorraine is a real nice person, but aren't they still in the Placentia Assembly? Sorry, but with Jack at the reins there I don't think there will be a lot of fresh thinking. Talk about a controlling guy.
Well, thanks for the info, and I will keep you posted as events go forward (which they hopefully will). I will say this about Marcos - if he does sell the house he will pay people back. To his credit, he is that kind of man.
Steve called Dave Zach on May 26, 2006: Thanks for the information. I called Dave Zach a few minutes ago and had a very pleasant conversation with him. He is very level headed. Not too far into the conversation, he said that Marcos should sell it. That will make a big difference with Marcos since Dave was the main contributor.
Marcos did talk to people about the house, but he did it a couple of years ago and what was communicated was that another group (Calvary Chapel I think) was going to use the house. That never happened. He agreed that the house has never really been used in a "great way" and that a pastor renting it didn't really constitute it being used for the work of the Lord.
So the next step would be to contact Marcos. Obviously I would appreciate your prayers for that conversation. It would be nice to see that house sold so that chapter of our lives could have some closure. However, I thought it might be prudent before contacting Marcos to wait until your letter with Brent's statement arrived at his door. That would give a little more weight to the conversation I think. Can you let me know when you think it might arrive?
Brent replied on May 26, 2006: Since I don't have email for Marcos, he won't receive it until next week sometime. I got an email from Steve, regarding his conversation with Dave Zach, and it appears that all of us are on the same page regarding the property; that it should be sold, the investors repaid and the profit enjoyed by those who provided sweat equity. I'm not sure where Marcos is getting his "consensus" from, but then again, none of us have been in contact with him recently. If you have his email, let me know, and I can get the letter to him promptly.
The editor replied that no email address seems to be available.
May 31, 2006, Brent emailed Steve and the editor:
I am mailing this off today. Your comments appreciated.
May 31, 2006
Marcos and Marta Velasco
RE: Casa de Sion
Dear Marcos and Marta:
I was browsing Steve and Margaret Irons’ website, Assembly Reflections, the other day, and noticed a posting about the house in Cuernavaca and your future plans for ministry. First of all, let me say that I wish you much success in your construction business, and I sincerely hope that your plans for ministry in Mexico come to fruition. Serving Jesus, and serving others is certainly something I wholeheartedly endorse. May God richly bless you in this endeavor!
I was somewhat concerned about a phrase I saw on the website, which was attributed to you. Namely, that "Marcos has spoken with those in the Assembly who were most involved with the work there, and feels the consensus is to let the property continue to be used for the Lord's work. But if it were to be sold, the funds would be dispersed to the donors." I know that Steve C. and Eric J. were involved with "the Work" there, and I know that Dave Zach was probably the main financial backer. As we have previously discussed, I was also a financial backer, for the amount of ten thousand dollars.
I have not spoken to Eric J. about this, but I know that Steve and Dave feel quite strongly the way I do; the property should be sold and funds dispersed to the donors. Please indulge me and let me explain why I believe it is the Christ honoring thing to do at this point. First of all, the house was built entirely under the auspices of George’s ministry at the time. The house was clearly understood to be the property of "the Work," which as you know is defunct. It was George’s house, to be used as he directed, for the purposes of supporting his ministry.
Your wife "owned" it only because of Mexican real estate laws. Had George ever thought for one minute that you were going to "commandeer" his house, he would not have allowed it! My point in saying this is to illuminate and re-establish the fact that the funds provided at the time were gifts to George and his ministry. I personally handed him ten thousand dollars in one hundred-dollar bills for that purpose.
I did not give the money to you, or Eric, but to George, for the "Work." It was not my intention to give the money to Calvary Chapel, Billy Graham, or any other Christian organization, but to George’s ministry. I had no intention either at the time I gave to the money, or at any time subsequent to that time to give the money to support your future personal ministry, or to buy you property in Mexico.
Well, as we both know, the state of George’s ministry, and our view of it has changed drastically since the late 1990’s! Not only is his ministry not making any sort of inroads in Cuernavaca, but he doesn’t even visit there anymore! Certainly he doesn’t utilize the house in any sort of way. From what I understand, the house isn’t being used at all, and the owners---you and Marta---live in the U.S. at present.
Furthermore, the property has appreciated to some extent, if my information is correct. Since we were all involved in "Casa de Sion," to one degree or another, and since God has clearly thwarted and shattered the original "vision" we all shared at the time, I strongly believe it is time to sell the house, and repay those who were involved.
Certainly those who labored in the building and maintaining of the property should be reimbursed, as should those who provided capital. It would be a simple thing to figure out a formula, taking into account the worth of the house, and the amount of investment in order to arrive at a reasonable figure for each person. In my opinion, most of the profit belongs to you, since you were there the most.
I feel equally as strong that it would be immoral for you and Marta to keep the house, and not re-pay others who helped in the building and financing. The reason for the strong language in the sentence preceding is that at no time did any of us intend to purchase real estate as a gift for you and your wife to enjoy. Neither at any time did any of us have any intention for that money to be a "gift" for some unknown Christian ministry in the future.
So, the bottom line is that all of us sacrificed for George in one way or another, some more, some less. After the collapse, why should you and your wife be the only ones with something to show for it? Why should my loss equal your profit? Surely, if the tables were turned, and you were in my position, you would see my point? I am trusting that you will give this entreaty serious consideration and that you will consult with those who were involved with Casa de Sion. I can’t imagine any of them are happy to have purchased a house (which I understand is currently vacant and unguarded) for you, at their expense and solely for your personal profit.
The years I spent in the Geftakys Assembly had both blessing and grief. In the end, it became clear that we were all deceived by George, and many of us have learned some hard lessons. Yes, in spite of all that, we have a Faithful Savior, who never forsook us, and guided us safely through.
Seeing as how we all, to one degree of another suffered under a charlatan, I can’t see any reason why you should receive financial gain as a direct result of my (and others) misfortune. Yes, you most certainly deserve financial compensation for the labor and money you provided for Casa de Sion. I hope you reap hundreds of thousands of dollars. You certainly earned it.
As for me, I didn’t lift a finger in Mexico, but I worked hard here in SLO and sent a modest ten thousand towards construction costs. I certainly am entitled to a return on my investment, same as you, same as Steve, and same as Dave Zach. If we all contributed in unity, we should all be compensated fairly, according to what we gave and what the house sells for. Please call me, or email me.
Brent T.
Steve C. replied to Brent and the editor on May 31, 2006: Hi Brent,
Great and perfect. My concern isn't so much that he will pay people back, although I think it is good that you have commented in this regard. I think it would be good as you have at least alluded to, that someone work with Marcos in the dispersion of the money, so that there at least be some agreement and accountability.
The only thing not mentioned in your letter that I really have some strong feelings about is that Eric J. get a good portion of whatever profit Marcos' gleans. He was there as much as Marcos. The only difference was that he wasn't directly responsible for the construction. However, when GG went down there, Marcos and Martha were always the ones that got the little extras either through Betty or George, and Eric and Arlene never received anything. Marcos and Martha got trips back to the US, Martha a special trip to get dental work to remove "poisonous" amalgam fillings, .... I'm sure you could easily fill in the blanks.
I'm not saying this needs to be included in your letter. It's an issue that could be brought up later. Of course, someone may have a strong feeling differently, in which case I wouldn't push it. I know Eric wouldn't go to battle for it. I did speak to Dave about this point, and he agreed with me. My 2 cents.
Thanks for your involvement. If you send this out tomorrow, by at least Monday, Marcos should have read it. I would like to call him around that time. We'll see what happens.
The editor replied to Brent on May 31, 2006: I hope Marcos will be entreated. It's good that Steve C. will follow up with a phone call. A minor note of clarification--the property is not completely vacant and unguarded. Marcos said there is a carpenter living in the smaller house.
...and to Steve:
I hope Marcos will be entreated. I'm sure you will bring up the good points you make here when you speak with him in person.
In late August, 2006, the editor heard via a grapevine loop from a Velasco family member that Marco and Marta are moving out of Orange County to the Lake Elsinore area. Presumably this move is due to a construction job. In September the editor asked Brent and Steve if they had heard anything back from Marcos.
Brent replied on September 12, 2006: Regarding Marcos, he ignored my letter. I heard nothing from him. Steve C. and I had extensive dialogue, and the overwhelming consensus from Steve, Eric and Arlene J., myself and Dave Zach is that Marcos should sell the place and pay back the investors, both those who invested money and those who invested time and labor. (Eric J. has 50% sweat equity with the Velasco's). No one thinks he should keep the house and start a "ministry."
I think it is unconscionable that Marcos and Marta would keep the house for themselves, or worse yet, keep all the profit from a sale and leave the J's out of the loop. I don't expect ex-Assembly people to behave in an ethical manner...unless they be those that have repented.
From what Steve C. says, Marcos is still "hearing God's voice." Other voices, especially those with human vocal cords and physical locations are "from the enemy." So, Satan says, "Sell the house." Marcos, ignoring any sort of counsel or guidance, seems to be set in his ways, even if it means repeated vandalism and degradation of his property. It makes me sick. I don't suppose his ministry will be too effective either...
Steve replied to the editor on September 13, 2006: I did contact him, but he didn't give any indication that he was going to sell the property. That is too bad. I really think that it should be sold. I don't know what his new phone number is, but could probably get it via his sister.
The editor replied to Steve on September 15, 2006: Re. Marcos, I think at this point perhaps I should contact him myself and inquire whether he received Brent's letter. I would like to do this by mail rather than by phone. Do you think you could get their new address from Martha S.?
Efforts were made over a period of months to track down a current address for Marcos and Marta.
June 7, 2007: The editor editor learned from a relative that Marcos and Marta have been moving around a lot, probably due to the nature of his construction business. At least one relative keeps in touch with Marcos by cell phone, but the latest word is that they currently do not have a permanent address and are looking for a location for the family.
June 10, 2007: The editor was finally able to confirm with the relative that Marcos did receive Brent's letter last year, who said Marcos talked a little bit about it at a family gathering and said he didn't know what to say in reply, because he still feels the same way he did when he spoke with Brent at length several years ago: That the money for Casa de Sion was not given to him but to the Lord and he wants to see it still be used for Him.
The relative seems to feel that Marcos has a valid point, and sees it as an impasses between two stubborn and strongminded people, Brent and Marcos, which no-one else can resolve.
Since the disposition of the Casa de Sion property in Cuernavaca is matter of importance to several people, and we have made a lengthy attempt to verify that Marcos and Marta did receive Brent's letter, it seems that it is now appropriate to make this matter public.
June 15, 2007, from Dave Sable: It is very interesting to see the different points of view between Brent and Marcos. It expresses two distinct theologies of decision making.
Marcos seems to take the position that was taught in the Assembly as well as popular in evangelicalism. Namely, "God speaks to me personally and privately. My walk with the Lord is just that: my exclusively personal, direct contact with God. I can’t prove to you that God spoke to me, but you certainly can’t prove to me that He didn’t. He said to me, 'Use this house for ministry in Mexico,' and that’s that."
Brent seems to take the position that while God can speak to the individual, major decisions should be worked out in community, discussing the issues openly with those who are involved, perhaps even including outside arbitrators who have a reputation for the gift of wisdom. It must ultimately be related back to sound principals, not the spiritual experience or leanings of one individual.
This is the reason I believe Brent is right in the matter. He is not saying, "Accept my view or you’re an idiot”. He is attempting to pull together the corporate wisdom of brothers and sisters seeking the Lord about this matter together. Only a man who is confident in the Lord can put the fate of a decision in the hands of a committee that he cannot control.
Marcos unwittingly puts himself as the sole discerner of the mind of God in this matter. Though he is a gentle man (at least he was twenty years ago when I knew him), his position is essentially saying, “You just have to accept that I am doing the work of God and there will be no discussion on the matter.” There is a term for this: unaccountable.
I think God puts thoughts on our heart. However, I have learned to never completely trust the thoughts of my heart. If a thought is from God, I can discuss it with other wise brothers and sisters and it will be affirmed or (to my chagrin) rejected. But there is safety and health when Christians operate in community in this way. There is opportunity for disaster when someone tries to hold onto the desire of their heart while rejecting any who would question it.
July 15, 2008, Steve C.: I talked with Marcos about six months ago or so. Marcos is still not willing to sell. He still sees the house as something that God did and still does want to use.
Interesting, a couple of weeks ago a brother in Cuernavaca who was a Leading Brother-in-training and his daughter came to visit us. We had a really great time with them. The subject of the house came up and I asked him what he thought. He said he had talked with a couple of other brothers who were the most involved with it and they all had the same thought: sell it so that chapter of the book could be closed.
So Marcos is just doing what he wants in hanging on to it. He says that he has talked with some of the major players in the project and that they are in agreement with him, but I think he is selective in who he is talking to. I wish we could do something, but I'm not holding my breath.
Editor: So the Christians themselves in Cuernavaca who were involved with the Geftakys ministry and the house are not eager to have Marcos come back and begin his own ministry.
Brent's response: Marcos is lying like only a Worker can lie. I have yet to talk with someone, or hear 2nd or 3rd hand about anyone who thinks he should keep the house and 'use it for God.' Yet, Marcos claims that "others" agree with him. Like who?
None of the people who were there when it was built agree he should keep it.
None of the "leaders" who lived in it, and served with him agree he should keep it.
None of the people who invested money think he should keep it.
The bottom line is that Marcos has absconded with a house that he didn't pay for, and all of us who gave money for the construction are paying the price. We didn't buy Marcos a house. We bought a house for The Work of George Geftakys. The Work is gone...sell the house.
